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CATEGORY LISTINGS > DETROIT > cam seals on Detroit Series 60 [ REFRESH ]
Thread Title: cam seals on Detroit Series 60
Created On Thursday February 21, 2008 16:44
  cam seals on Detroit Series 60
  cam seals on Detroit Series 60
  cam seals on Detroit Series 60
  cam seals on Detroit Series 60
  cam seals on Detroit Series 60
  cam seals on Detroit Series 60
  cam seals on Detroit Series 60
  cam seals on Detroit Series 60
  cam seals on Detroit Series 60
  cam seals on Detroit Series 60
  cam seals on Detroit Series 60
  cam seals on Detroit Series 60
  cam seals on Detroit Series 60
  cam seals on Detroit Series 60


stonefly

Posts: 243
Joined: Feb 2008

Thursday February 21, 2008 16:44

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I'll be a son of a gun, Gone Fishen, I was hopin' I could find where you was hangin' out.

You might not remember me. You gave me some advice on my Detroit about 2 years ago. I'm just gettin' around to workin' on it now.

I had copied and saved some things, but you mentioned that when I was ready to start workin' on it to give you a holler.

I need to run an overhead too, and never did that before.

I do have an engine manual, but I can't ask the manual questions.

I have the radiator out and the fan and fan clutch removed, so I have a little room to work.

Do I really need that pilot, the J35906?

The dealer wants something like $235.00 for it.

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GoneFishen

Posts: 1325
Joined: Jan 2007

Thursday February 21, 2008 19:57

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OK, you have lots of room as you say. Remember if you goof this up the engine will be out of tiime however listen up. You asked about the diamond seal/perimeter seal. The tool is real hjandy but expensive. What we used to do before we were doing a better system is this. Get a can or 2 of brake clean. take the cover off in front of the can bolt. spray the h%^^%$#^&*( out of the gears so clean that there is no oil residue. Make sure that you can get the 2 [or 3] bolts on the cam gear. Line the bolts up. spray the gears. let dry. Use a paint marker and mark the teeth of the gears. Scribe a marker line between the gears. So when you look inside the gear case the line goes on BOTH gears. This is your timing marks. DO NOT MOVE THE ENGINE NOW. iIf you had the tool you could move the engine but you don't. Put the bar away for now. Undo the cam bolt it will be tight, and move the camshaft back. Carefully slide the gear away just enough to remove the perimeter seal with a sharp pic. Install a new perimeter seal and a new diamond seal, close the gap with the camshaft and gear. USE A NEW BOLT. Buy a new bolt anyway, don't ask why. Just do it. Torque is 55 lbs, then 120*. The actual torque is somewhere around 500+ torque. Beforre you torque the bolt you can LOOK inside the gear case and make sure that the paint mark is still in alignment. If you are handy and have scrap laying around you could fabricate a 'holding fisture' that slides inside the cam bolt hole for help. That is basically what that fancy tool is for. We used to used the tool AND mark the gear. 1 other thing, when removing the 2 [3] bolts on the gear/head, place shop rags under the working area just in case you drop a bolt into the gear case. I have magnetic sockets AND I use shop rags. Hope this helps a bit. Sorry for the long post. Let me know when readdy for the tune up. Use the overlap procedure for tuneup.

-------------------------
DDA tech for 30 years,all 2 cycle,series 60,50 mbe also.
1995 F250, 191k mi.
Lost Wages, Nv

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stonefly

Posts: 243
Joined: Feb 2008

Friday February 22, 2008 07:00

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thanks, Gone Fishen.

It's cold out there in my field today, but I'm gonna have at it.

stonefly

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stonefly

Posts: 243
Joined: Feb 2008

Sunday February 24, 2008 16:04

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I got the diamond seal and the perimeter seals out. I didn't have to move the cam back to get them out. The perimeter seal slid past the front of the cam easily, and the diamond seal fairly easily.

I did mark the gears real good. the cam gear, the hub, and the thrust plate came forward and things dropped a little, but I ain't worried about that cause like I said, the gears are marked real good.

It's getting a little dark to see out there, right now, so I believe I'll wait until morning to start trying to get the new seals in place.

I've got a pretty good set of picks, and a fair amount of patience, but from the way that the old perimeter seal came out of its position, it looks likes it's going to be a difficult job to get the new one into the groove in the plate.

Is there any particular kind of method that's used to get that seal into place, or is it just a matter of old fashioned patience and perseverance?

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GoneFishen

Posts: 1325
Joined: Jan 2007

Sunday February 24, 2008 19:31

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Usually we have the hub come out towards the front. The housing has a slight bevel on that side. I have however used a bit of vaseline to 'help' with the install. Good luck. Remember to use a new bolt.

-------------------------
DDA tech for 30 years,all 2 cycle,series 60,50 mbe also.
1995 F250, 191k mi.
Lost Wages, Nv

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stonefly

Posts: 243
Joined: Feb 2008

Sunday February 24, 2008 20:00

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I did buy a new bolt. It was about $24.00.

The hub did come out toward the front, but for the life of me I couldn't see how I could possibly get the O-ring off from the front of the engine. The thrust plate is behind the cam gear, which has enough webs on it to make it difficult to reach the O-ring from the front. I couldn't get the pick to go past the webbing of the cam gear, and then turn and grab the O-ring, especially when I couldn't see it.

That's when I pushed the thrust plate forward from behind the engine cover until there was a gap between the engine cover and the thrust plate. The cam, hub, and plate dropped down about 1/4" from position. I reached in from behind the engine cover and with a pick and pulled up the O-ring. Then, with another pick, I pulled it out past the front end of the camshaft. I'll be careful that the gears are in proper time when I'm ready to put bolts back, but for the time being, I'm wondering how I'm gonna' get the new O-ring into the groove.

You replace the O-ring from the front? You must be related to David Copperfield, the magician. I stared at that cam gear for a half hour and tried every way I could, but I could not get a pick on that O-ring from the front of the engine. That's when I pushed everything forward as far as I could and worked at it from the back.

It's snowing a blizzard here right now. I've got the engine covered with a tarp, but if there's too much snow on everything tomorrow, I might have to delay for a while.

I'll sure be givin' ya' a holler if I run into any snags.

thanx Gone Fishen


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midnightcamaro

Posts: 38
Joined: Jan 2008

Sunday February 24, 2008 23:32

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yes you replace the oring from the back side. it makes it much easier having the tool gonefishin reffered to but..... did you mark the gears before you pused it out? but either way i usually take and hold the thrust seal (the big pink oring) put the other side in from the back side of the gearcase, (ps. i always put a little vaseline around the seal this helps from cutting it) but when u get it started you kinda have to work around pushing it in with a screwdriver make sure once you get it in there that its set in the groove all the way around. make sure it didnt go over the hub and btw the gear. once you get it in there good set it back up in the hole. most of the have a little demple on one side of it at the back of the hub. then there should be a demple in the back of the gear case at the top. those two spots need to line up (so that the thrust plate bolts will go in) now once you get it set up in there, assuming you marked the gears make sure you get those marks line up. as long as you get it back in time, if you used a little vaseline on the pink oring and the demples arent lined up you can turn the plate a little to line it up. get it set up in there hold it and push the cam forward so that the dowel pin goes in the hole of the hub. make sure it gets set in there good. put the cam bolt in run it down with your fingers then put your thrust plate bolts in (MAKE SURE NOT TO DROP THEM) assuming this is a S60 at our shop we torque the trust bolts to 28ftlbs working around in an even pattern. then torque the cam bolt to 250ftlbs. we always get new cam bolt and thrust plate bolts. once you get it all torqued and everything you would want to check cam timing. if you marked the gears you should be ok but its a good practice. however you would have to remove the #1 inj to find top dead center and make your marks. i dont know if you got all the parts for that or not, but once you get it back together to that part if you need further help let us know. good luck with it.

-------------------------
diesel technician by occupation, drag racer and car enthusiast for life

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GoneFishen

Posts: 1325
Joined: Jan 2007

Sunday February 24, 2008 23:51

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I install the new 'O' ring from the engine side. I put the 'O' ring in the groove and hold it there with a very small screwdriver or sharp pic. Then I slowly rotate the hub and keep working the seal in the groove from the engine side with another pic. After the seal is on I apply a small amount of vaseline to the gear case and slowly work the hub in. Keep in mind to make sure that the 2/3 bolt holes are aligned. [the newer engines have 3 bolts, the older engines have 2, The EGR engine don't have those damn bolts. But that is another story]. Hope this helps, Good luck. No Snow here YET.

-------------------------
DDA tech for 30 years,all 2 cycle,series 60,50 mbe also.
1995 F250, 191k mi.
Lost Wages, Nv

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midnightcamaro

Posts: 38
Joined: Jan 2008

Monday February 25, 2008 00:20

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the egr engine dont have what bolts?

-------------------------
diesel technician by occupation, drag racer and car enthusiast for life

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stonefly

Posts: 243
Joined: Feb 2008

Monday February 25, 2008 12:24

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I got both seals in OK.

Before I installed the new diamond seal I measured its thickness and compared the measurement with the old seal. Sure enough, the old seal was thinner. I guess it had hardened to the point where it just wasn't working anymore.

I have the radiator to re-core. I'll get to work on that.

I need to do the overhead. On first glance, the cam and all of the rollers look good. I don't see any signs of wear. I was afraid that I would. It's probably been over 300,000 miles since the last overhead.

Gone Fishen, you mentioned the overlap procedure. I don't know what that is, but I'm gonna wait for your help before I begin.

Thanks, fellas.

stonefly

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stonefly

Posts: 243
Joined: Feb 2008

Monday February 25, 2008 19:06

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The cam gear bolt is torqued, the cover is replaced, and the valve cover is off.

Where do I begin with a tune up?


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GoneFishen

Posts: 1325
Joined: Jan 2007

Monday February 25, 2008 23:31

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You know the firing order right? 1,5,3,6,2,4. Look at the valves and you are looking for the NEXT intake set to open. Bar the engine over IN rotation. I use the accessorie drive hub and stand on the L side of the engine and PULL the ratchet towards me. Bar the engine over until [example] #2. Wqatch BOTH sets of valves. You want the exhaust valves to be closing and the intakes to just barely start to open. [overlap posistion. We used #2 as an example right? set the companion set of valves [#5] and the next injector in foring sequence. Ok, I see you are confused. I was at first. Think 7. always think 7 . Companion cylinders = 7. 1,6, 2,5 3,4. Better? Set the valves on #5 because the overlap is on #2. Still with me? What is after #2? 4 in firing order right? After setting the valves on #5 and the injector on #3 , [1 5 3 6 2 4], You are to bar the engine over until the overlap is next after #2. 4 right? So if you are on overlap on 4 you will notice that you had just adjusted the injector on the companion cylinder 3 and NOW you are adjusting the valves on #3. Next in firing order is what to set injector wise? 6, ok. After the setting is done you are to use the firing order again and what comes after the last overlap 4? #1 right. Bart the engine over again and look for the overlap on #1 and presto, you just did the injector on #6 now you are setting the valves on #6.

overlap valves injector
1 6 2
5 2 4
3 4 1
6 1 5
2 5 3
4 3 6

Better now??????/

-------------------------
DDA tech for 30 years,all 2 cycle,series 60,50 mbe also.
1995 F250, 191k mi.
Lost Wages, Nv

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stonefly

Posts: 243
Joined: Feb 2008

Tuesday February 26, 2008 08:48

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Yes, I understand, and I dug out the engine manual to get the proper settings. However, the weather here has changed my plans for the day.

It’s rainin’ solid here today, and I reckon I’ll be spendin’ the day indoors readin’ up and doin’ taxes and other paperwork.

I’m lookin’ at the engine manual. It says, in reference to “Measurement/Adjustment Period:”

“Once the initial measurements and adjustments have been made, any adjustments beyond this point should be made only as required to maintain satisfactory engine performance.”

Actually, the engine has been running good, and the only reason I decided to tune it up is because it's been so long since I had it done years ago.

It goes on to say:

"NOTE:
This is a change from the original recommendation, which required checking, and (if necessary) adjusting valve lash and injector heights at 120,000 miles for vehicle engines.”


It’s probably been over 300,000 miles since I had the last overhead adjustments made.

I found out, reading the manual here, if I’ve understood correctly, that the intake and exhaust clearances can be measured without removing the jakes. I’ll plan on doing that.

If I’m thinking wishfully, I’m thinking that maybe the measurements will be right and no adjustment will be called for.

If I’m thinking realistically, I’m thinking that I’ll probably need to be removing the jakes in order to make necessary adjustments.

Also:

I see that injector adjustment calls for a height gage. Quote: “The fuel injector height is measured using the required Injector Height Gage as listed in table 12-2.”

I guess I’m looking at buying a height gage. For some reason I had the idea that the injectors were adjusted with a feeler gage the same as the valves.

I guess I must appear dumb for somebody who’s owned this engine for 8 years. What can I claim in defense, in my own behalf? It has been an amazing piece of machinery that has performed so well, and given me so few problems, that I’ve never gotten to know it from the inside. The only thing I know about it is that it has been dependable and runs well. EXCEPTION: Now I know how to change the diamond seal and the perimeter seal.

Makes one proud of the phrase, “Made in the U. S. A.”

There’s another note of interest here in the manual.

NOTE:
The slave piston adjusting screws used in the Series 60 engine brake prior to August 1994 were reset screws. Reset screws are not to be dissembled in the field. Effective with August 1994 engines, reset screw assemblies were replaced with Power-Lash assemblies.”

My engine is a 1993. Does that mean that I do not make an adjustment to the slave piston screw on my jakes?

Edited: Tuesday February 26, 2008 at 08:55 by stonefly

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GoneFishen

Posts: 1325
Joined: Jan 2007

Tuesday February 26, 2008 20:04

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Look on the rockeer cover, look at the label in French. The correct timing tool for your engine is there. The valve lash settings are there also. Do you have the 3 piece Jake setup? If so tune the engine up w/o the jakes. MUCH easier. If you have the 2 piece setup you will need to do something different. Whatever you do have, you WILL remove the jakes for a good tuneup. Yes set the jakes also after setting the valves/injectors. Reuse the valve lash procedure and when you were to set the valves, set the Jakes. I use the valve lash feeler guage[exhaust] for jake setting.

-------------------------
DDA tech for 30 years,all 2 cycle,series 60,50 mbe also.
1995 F250, 191k mi.
Lost Wages, Nv

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